And totally not for pre-installed junk and bloat and horrible AI and surveillance nonsense, nosiree.
lol how much ram does that need when they’re shipping every bit of data on your computer to their servers to do processing on there?
Why not outsource the power usage and hardware costs to the consumer and just reap the end result?
Meh, Windows itself, even with all the bloat still active, doesn’t need more than 2 Gigs. That’s one of the few issues microsoft isn’t responsible for.
Try using it on a 2 or 4 GB machine. It’s pretty much impossible.
Jesus Christ, what are they doing? Emulating the OS in fucking Minecraft!?
The article mentions AI. 16gigs feels far too little to run a LLM of respectable size so I wonder what exactly this means? Feels like no one is gonna be happy about a 16gig LLM (high RAM usage and bad AI features)
Of fucking course it’s AI, why the hell wouldn’t it be AI. For fuck sake, it’s like they want their users to switch to Linux.
No 16 gigs is ok for an LLM
On your gpu
JavaOS
Wait, we talking dedotated wam?!
Plausibily, they could be trying to dictate the minimum standard for budget laptops, win11 doesn’t really need a TPM, it’s in the minimum spec so that every laptop is forced to have one.
I will have no next windows PC anyways. I’ll go out of my way to get one without a windows license, to put linux onto it :)
Unfortunately they don’t ship to norway (or have a norwegian layout available). But would really like one if/when they do. Not in a rush to get a new laptop now though. I’ll keep framework in mind when its time for a new one.
Or with Coreboot: https://minifree.org
I may have 128Gb in my current rig (Dell Precision T7610), but if this is the way you’re gonna be bloating Windows 12, imma gonna be running to OpenSUSE or some BSD.
Yes, I use Win10Privacy to lobotomize all of the spyware and cruftware that comes with Windows. But it’s gotta be re-run after every significant Windows update.
I do have 16GB RAM, but that’s not because I wanted to run just the OS and without a game.
Going to need 32 GB of RAM or more plus a GPU with 48 GB of VRAM just to run Win12 w/ AI subsystem so you have enough headroom to run a program or two
I love to bash MS, but this feels like an industry-wide trend to /never/ care about optimizing beyond the bar of “typical specs of new devices in rich countries”. I’m guessing it’s just to limit labor costs, and computers are less-rapidly-improving than the 90s/00s?
Code optimization has pretty much fallen by the way side since ram prices keep going down and cpu performance keeps improving.
Why spend the time if you don’t have to?
Browsers are some of the worst culprits.
Browser canvas is one of the worst culprits: it has to keep a buffer with an uncompressed bitmap several screens in size.
Old browsers used to keep a single screen worth of canvas buffer, then redraw stuff as you scrolled… which made it a horrible experience. You can still find some of that with “clever” web designs where they replace fonts or move things dynamically as you scroll.
Then you have websites with “infinite scroll” that just keep increasing the canvas buffer size more and more and more, to infinity and beyond… and people wonder why their Facebook or Reddit tabs use so much RAM.
Just for the sake of a beautiful audited and blazingly fast codebase that tuns qo good that Raspberry Pi user can run your stuff too.
I love optimisation!
premature optimization is the root of all evil - Donald Knuth
which does not excuse a total lack of optimization, but gotta hit those kpi’s
if it remember it correctly it was said in relation to algorithm optimization > code optimization
My new PC has 64g ram. But I’m also not using or plan to use windows. Checkmate M$!
But in all seriousness, 8g is like, the foundational minimum these days. Sad tbh. Browsers are so bloated these days. I’m surprised that browsers haven’t become their own OS yet. It kinda feels that way in some environments.
Phones are coming with 12GB and Apple are still only putting 8Gb in their ‘pro’ line.
🙃
Does it really matter though that iPhone has less RAM? Their architecture is super efficient and can get by with less than android bloat.
Oh not their phones. Their $1799 14” MacBook Pro.
₼ac฿ook ₽ro
Well, Chrome OS is a thing.
ChromeOS is more of an OS built to optimize a browser though. Its close though.
If Microsoft wants more RAM just to do AI shit on my computer, I’d rather have even less just to make sure they cant.
Be careful with what you wish for… if they can’t do it on your computer, then they’ll send your data to the cloud to do it there.
You now understand why I constantly run at 10 bytes below my OS drive’s limit. They cant take consent away if what they want to do is physically impossible. Sure you can delete some temporary files but that’s only going to net you 1GB max. Good fucking luck.
This goes two ways, everyone with less ram will probably don’t know about Linux and just lose their laptop (not upgradable ones) and: new built laptops will have more ram and better CPUs. And guessing with the windows handheld industry this also boosts them. But it’s gonna be a big shame people just abandoning their tech because of not enough knowledge.
This is like people abandoning a stick shift and rigid frames/chasses for modern automatic/CVT and and unibody with crumple zones. The latter are complicated, expensive, and inefficient - but substantially more forgiving to the average driver who merely wants to get from A to B with the minimum amount of effort. Linux will be there for people who choose to dedicate hundreds of hours a year to the hobby of computers. For everyone else who doesn’t want to open their laptop to replace the keyboard, update their wireless card, and clean or replace the system fans and solder in a new power connector, buying a new laptop with the extra horsepower (to overcome the code creep) will offer them all those things at a price cheaper than even taking them to the corner repair shop to get the mechanical failures fixed.
Linux will be there for people who choose to dedicate hundreds of hours a year to the hobby of computers.
And my grandma. She’s been running Linux just fine for the past 3 years. I don’t think she even knows what an OS is.
That’s a bit hyperbolic. You’re talking as if it’s still early 2000s. Many Linux distributions have very good user experience for beginners and better out-of-the-box device driver support than even Windows.
I choose one of those niche distributions since I have advanced requirements. But I have observed a steady decline in hardware-related issues over the years. In fact, Linus Torvalds confirms this in an interview.
Linux distributions are a viable alternative to Windows these days. But what keeps people away from it is misinformation and FUD like these.
Many Linux distributions have very good user experience for beginners
I 100% agree. The issue isn’t beginners, it’s people who already know windows, and only windows. They’d be just as lost switching to OSX. Kids pick up chromebooks easily, but most adults - the ones who have 5-8 year old machines with only 8GB - are completely lost. I tried to get my mother onto LibreOffice (okay, Open Office…it’s been that long) and it lasted less than a week and one panicked old-lady newsletter deadline. She was utterly lost, and no amount of help would get her out. To be fair, she gets lost when her phone updates to the newest major OS revision.
I choose one of those niche distributions since I have advanced requirements.
I chose windows for the same reason - specialized industry where nearly all tools are written for Windows. I have $15k in software, $200k in setup and procedures, and $100-200k in training I would have to redo to switch to linux, and while that was happening I would have zero income, so double those numbers for net losses. That’s assuming I could even find perfect analogs in the linux world, which is unlikely, and that I was willing to receive and send non-standard files to all of my colleagues. I could consider Wine/Proton, but then I’d have to learn it or risk losing $2000/day plus the cost of tracking down repairs if anything (like an update) broke a critical piece of software. It simply not worth the financial risk.
Already switched to linux
I have 32 gigs of ram and this shit is going to make me switch to Linux as well.
I do not want an OS that demands half of my processing power just to run in the background. I see absolutely no reason for an OS to demand 2-4 gigs of ram, let alone up to 16
My next OS will be some kind of Linux. I just had to reinstall Windows 11 because it corrupted it’s install after some time. I had to uninstall so much crap and regedit so many thinks just to get it back to where I was before. I don’t want Bing search in my windows search results. I don’t want your stupid widgets and I don’t want your browser or 90% of your default apps. And no I don’t want office 360 or onedrive. So stop forcing it into my face. When Linux gets Plasma 6 and HDR support there is only holding me back my Nvidia GPUs Linux compatibility. While I hah to install windows 11 again I played a lot of games on my Steam Deck! It’s is awesome and only some games with obscure anti cheat don’t run. (well some times they don’t run on windows too)
nvidia opensourced their drivers because of that lapsus kid.
the community is already building a state of the art open driver for nvidia 2xxxx and above.
only a matter of time, but even then nvidia is pretty usable with the proprietary drivers nowadays.
Just saying, but tweaking stuff via regedit is a surefire way to get your Windows install corrupted sooner or later.
dism, sfc… and disabling the preview update channel, are your friends to have a stable Windows install.
If you don’t want Bing results in your search, then use something like Everything to search for files. It’s faster, and will only show you files, all of them.
The widgets you can disable, and with Powertoys even bypass the start menu completely.
Don’t worry! Eventually, they will find a “cure,” such as Windows moving to a cloud-only model where your PC becomes a glorified dumb terminal!
So like Windows 365, but for consumers.
my first computer was a tandy sensation which has 4mb of ram and a 100mb hard drive
Meanwhile, chrome and desktop apps (Electron-based) like Slack, note apps, etc, takes 1GB just to open… Well, tbh I don’t know if they really use physical RAM space, but anyway.
Yes and no.
On modern OSs, files get mapped into RAM, which is a fancy way of saying “it can stay on disk, but it can also be cached in RAM, but the unmodified parts can get discarded out of cache at any moment, and any changes go first to RAM, then get written to disk at some later time”.
The apps also use buffers to hold data, and one of the largest buffers is for the canvas or window display buffer. These have to use actual RAM while the app is running; you can only swap them out to swap/pagefile if you suspend the app… which is doable, but rarely done… otherwise they’ll get swapped back in, the moment the app needs them (which usually is all the time… but some buffers might stay mostly swapped out some of the time).
There is also RAM compression going on (at least on Windows), that can keep mostly empty and/or rarely used buffers all the time “in RAM”, but taking just a fraction of the space.
